I recently had the following conversation with Shammah of The Rest of the Old Old Story: (To read the original post click the link above and read the post titled “The Time Changer”
- Kim Anderson Said,Hey Shammah! Great post. I still struggle with this idea. It’s not that I don’t come to the same end (I think) but the means are different. I’ve always understood that the works are an outpouring of God working through you. You can choose to force the works…pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do what you are “supposed” to do OR, you can allow having Christ in you and in those around you to transform you in such a way that those good works pour out of your joyful heart rather than a heart obligated by guilt or fear of disappointing those around you. I do think our works are something we will be held accountable for but I struggle with that fact being the motivation. It’s as if we are motivated to do good by our hope of something for ourselves rather than being compelled by Love.So, now I’ve said it. I think I either don’t understand your view on works or we think the same things and I just say it differently. If we are supposed to make ourselves do it rather than let it happen in us, I’d really like to know because that’s what I did as a young follower but I was turned on to this idea of “being” rather than “doing” and I haven’t quiet know what to be or do since. I haven’t wanted to ask on Tuesday night because, well, I kind of feel like an idiot for not understanding. So, it’s out now. Will you please enlighten this idiot?Kim
- Shammah Said,Hi Kim. I don’t think it’s either or; I think it’s both. Paul says of himself that he disciplines his body and brings it under subjection out of fear of being disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27). However, he also talks about Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, being rooted and grounded in love, and knowing the love of Christ so that we’d be filled with the fullness of God (Eph. 3:17-19). It’s God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Php. 2:13), but we, like Paul, should “strive according to his working, which works in me” (Col. 1:29).Peter commands us to conduct ourselves in fear (1 Pet. 1:17). John says perfect love casts out fear (1 Jn. 4:18). It’s not either or, it’s both. It might be nice if we were totally selfless, never thinking of rewards, but there’s no command to be that way, nor any examples of people that are that way. Even Christ himself overcame “for the joy that was set before him.” He was abundant in the use of threats of punishment and promises of rewards along with his commands.You may struggle with accountability being a motivation, but the fact is that we humans need accountability, and it will always be part of our motivation. We can dream about being such wonderful beings that accountability is unnecessary, and maybe such people exist. Jesus and the apostles don’t seem to address those people, though. They address weak people like ourselves who need the grace of God, each other, our efforts, our gratefulness, God’s mercy, and God’s threatenings and punishments in order to live lives pleasing to God.
- Kim Anderson Said,This is good to hear. I’ve never tried to not dichotomize it. The simplifies things greatly. Thanks! You just have no idea. I feel so free now.
I’ve struggled with this idea for years. The pull between being and doing. I think I’ve finally reconciled the two with this idea:
We do because we be. We choose to be becasue He is the great I AM. Choosing requires action, lack of action is still a choice and in this case waitng to be is detremental to the Body of Christ but becoming by doing-transformation and growth because of experiences while doing helps to build us up, both as individuals and the Body of Christ as a whole.
This may sound like a bunch of jibberish but on the off chance that it doesn’t or even if it does-
What do you think?
“I’ve always understood that the works are an outpouring of God working through you. You can choose to force the works…pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do what you are “supposed” to do OR, you can allow having Christ in you and in those around you to transform you in such a way that those good works pour out of your joyful heart rather than a heart obligated by guilt or fear of disappointing those around you.”
All good works, like you said, are an outpouring of grace, whether done with the intention of gaining eternal salvation so as to be with Christ forever or done with the more perfect intention of simply love of God. Both of them justifiable and good. However, I hold that the second is more perfect and better, and should be the intention we try to do all things with.
“It might be nice if we were totally selfless, never thinking of rewards, but there’s no command to be that way.”
I agree with this and find this to be very accurate. Like I said though, the second intention of doing for the love of God is the more perfect and better of the two (not to say the other is wrong or bad) and should be the intention we try to do all things with. I don’t hold that we should just simply accept the intention to do out of fear of hell or desire of heaven. We can accept it in a sense because it is not wrong or bad, but there is a more perfect intention (that of love of God) that we should strive for. Perhaps Shammah holds the same view. I am not naive enough to think that it will always be that way. We will fall and our intentions may not be totally pure (i.e. only for love of God), but purity of intention is certainly something to pray for and strive for.
I agree on what he basically said about Sola Fide, or the “faith alone” formula. I find it unscriptural and it’s origins cause it to be something I wouldn’t latch onto. That part of the movie probably would have bothered me a bit too. We do not earn our salvation by good works, but verses such as Romans 2:7 and Galations 6:6-10, do mean that “faith alone” is not an accurate description of what the Bible teaches about salvation. Verses like the above reveal that, as a result of God’s grace, we are capable of doing acts of love that please God and which he freely chooses to reward. One of the rewards, in the primary reward, is the *gift* of eternal life. One cannot *earn* salvation either by faith or works. If it were a matter of earning we would certainly all fall very short. Christ gives us the grace of faith and the grace of works, we have the choice to respond to that and when we do and when we act on those graces through Him then, in His goodness, He gives us the gift of eternal life. It is a matter of grace and the response to grace, which displays itself in faith and works which are rewarded by Christ by eternal salvation.
Seems like an interesting movie though, in that he is shown how his works/ideas have affected the Christian world, and perhaps those not of the Christian faith. I assume it would have one considering and discerning if one’s actions and works today will bring honor and glory to God’s name or be a hindrance to the Gospel or a very bad representation of it.
Interesting post, Kim.
Thanks Dev! It’s really affirming to hear the same truth coming from two people, who although you abide in different “sects” of Christ followers, I truly see Christ in you both. It’s also very good to hear the specifics of this with regard to your views on the subject because I wasn’t sure if you believed that,
“One cannot *earn* salvation either by faith or works. If it were a matter of earning we would certainly all fall very short. Christ gives us the grace of faith and the grace of works, we have the choice to respond to that and when we do and when we act on those graces through Him then, in His goodness, He gives us the gift of eternal life. It is a matter of grace and the response to grace, which displays itself in faith and works which are rewarded by Christ by eternal salvation.”
Which is exactly what I think and a very well put explanation of this truth.
I think the time I spent with people who seemed to believe they could *earn* their way and those who worked for the affirmation of men caused me to swing the pendulum to the other extreme. I tried to only do good works to the GLORY of God without becoming wrapped up in the affirmation of men. Not knowing how to do that without attracting the attention of men, I slowly began to do less and less.(as I typed the last sentence I realized it’s a completely silly idea. The good works are one of the ways people see God is alive and at work in the world today. God being glorified in me and through me SHOULD attract the attention of men. I just have to remember that any good work that comes from/through me is because he is in me.) I realized I wasn’t doing much of anything in my attempt to strive for the purest motives. I think that is more detrimental to the cause of Christ than if I do good works and let my motives change as I am transformed more into the image of Christ.